SOME of the sharpest comments following the Council meeting on January 13 were reserved for the way in which Council Chair Peter Hughes-Griffiths handled questions put by members of the public.
Shadow Secretary of State for Wales Nia Griffith said: “It does not help when people are trying to speak on behalf of others, possibly with no experience of public speaking and this type of meeting. Every effort should be made to accommodate the opportunity for them to ask questions and I would like to see a much more positive tone in council meetings rather than trying to close down all kinds of dialogue. A one word answer is unacceptable.”
Issues arose at the meeting when members of the public were asked to stick to their questions and not make speeches or provide a preamble to them.They were also told that any supplementary questions should be relevant to the response they received from their first question. During the meeting, County Councillor Anthony Jones called a point of order and suggested that the chair was being over zealous in his dealings with the public who had come to the meeting to ask questions.
We asked Councillor Jones what prompted him to call a point of order – he told The Herald: “I have chaired meetings where the public have come in to address committees. You have to show some sympathy to those who are taking their own time to come in and articulate their views or the views of their organisation. I think there should be some leeway whilst maintaining protocol. I found them being unjustly treated. The issue is that councillors or officers who need to reply have to take the public’s comments on board.”
However, Cllr Jones continued: “If people have accusations to make, councillors have to respond to them. Some may call it preambling I have found them helpful because they provide some background. There are lessons to be learned from Wednesday. There are protocols, which need to be explained. It can’t be sanitised to the extent where they can ask a question but where people have no idea what the question is relating to.
“There has to be a bit of give and take and the council may have to revisit this part. We need to take on board that we are used to being shouted at public speaking and some of those people are not. I admire them for what they did and I would like to apologise from a personal perspective for the way they were treated. They should not have been interrupted in the way they were interrupted and it came to a head when I said enough is enough. Let’s treat these people with a bit of sympathy and let them have their say. We are there to answer them.”
County Councillor Bill Thomas who also challenged the chairman said: “The Chairman has managed to turn people of integrity who could be described as worker bees working for their community totally unpaid, intent on trying to represent their own people many of who are children for the benefit of Society, into a hornets’ nest of resentment.”
County Councillor Tegwen Devichand has also expressed her concerns saying: “Speaking as a past chair of Carmarthen County Council I was disappointed by the lack of respect shown to members of the public who attended Carmarthen County Council yesterday. After the governance review it was proposed by full council to encourage questions from the public. This was put in place so the council could be seen conducting its business in an open transparent and accountable way.
Following the meeting, Mike Bassett claimed: “We were treated unfairly, we weren’t allowed to give the reasoning behind our supplementary questions. I was ordered to sit down because my supplementary question didn’t have any relevance to my first question. I thought it did and still do think it did.”
Opinions were also exchanged on the Herald’s Facebook page between Mike Bassett and Alun Lenny. Mike Bassett commented: “The attitudes of Peter, David, Emlyn and Linda yesterday have led us to forming our own party to fight for seats in the next election. We will place a candidate in every area that has Parks, Playgrounds and Playing Fields whose existence is threatened.
The Herald contacted County Councillor Alun Lenny to get his view on the chairman’s dealings with members of the public. Councillor Lenny said: “This is a provision that has been made by the council for the public who genuinely want to ask questions not a public forum for debate.
“If people want debate then we will have to provide a different platform for that. The chair was in a difficult position because the questions were written down and the person submitting the question has to keep to what they submitted. People should make use of a democratic system, the elected members who represent their ward.
“The previous day there was a meeting about Parc Howard where interested parties go together with the leader. I have suggested that Mark Evans from UNISON that he could be invited to meet with Plaid to discuss his concerns. As an elected member I would be able to ask a question as long as I put it in beforehand. I would not be allowed to start a debate. I understand people’s frustrations because people feel strongly. They are questions and for better or for worse, that is the protocol. It is a County Council meeting not a public meeting to discuss a specific issue. There may be a need to have another meeting for that. Looking at the asset transfer the deadline is 2018 so it isn’t like anything needs to be decided this month.”
The Herald contacted Peter Hughes Griffiths to find out what his perspective was on how he dealt with the people asking the questions. The Chairman of Carmarthenshire County Council defended his handling of members of the public who asked questions at the full council meeting by saying: “They (the questioners) were aware of the protocol. I double checked that with democratic services. What it is really, it is quite simple It is the same rules for members of the council.
“If you noticed, Tegwen Devichand asked a question and she received an answer. The subsidiary question relates to the reply. Members have to confine to the rules. Members would take advantage of it if I didn’t keep a fairly tight rope on it. I have to have the same rules for members of the public.
“I am glad members of the public are coming and asking questions. The issue arose when it was clear they had prepared the question in advance but also began to make other points after having a reply. The Chief Executive clarified the rules. There is no time limit to the agenda, that was not the issue. They have to stick to the rules. The point of order is called not on what is going on but relating to the rules. I could accept that because he was referring to our rules. Bill Thomas got up and gave his views. Anybody could get up and say point of order but it must be within the confines of the rules. Anthony had a point and once he and Mark James had read out the rules we were clear on procedure.”
Speaking about the council’s efforts to embrace openness and accountability, Peter Hughes Griffiths said: “The public can speak to their elected representatives and ask them to lobby on their behalf. I think they were misplaced in what they could say and do, even though they were sent the rules in advance.
“Looking back on it I have decided that what I will do now is to meet the questioners beforehand on the day and make sure everyone understands each other so we don’t have to face that situation again. There are no specific rules regarding the member’s reply but it must be within reason. As a matter of fact, as chairman, I am reviewing that as well.”
Mr Hughes-Griffiths continued: “There were no public questions at Council meetings for years, so it is a novel situation that we have had. Where there are questions perhaps they could be addressed at a separate meeting. You could arrange a meeting with council representatives and get answers. Perhaps sometimes the reply from the member could be ‘this is my reply today but I will arrange a meeting with you and listen to you’. That might be the next step perhaps.”
Expressing his confidence in the way forward, the veteran councillor told The Herald: “We are finding our way, but we are finding the best way. We don’t want slanging matches. It doesn’t serve anyone any good. I still feel that it is important for the public to put their case to us; but I must be clear, the rules are the rules and, as Chair, I have to be strict on them.”
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